meaningful work podcast

Episode 26: Bold Marketing: Igniting Growth through Identity Work, with Belinda Weaver

Jun 11, 2024 | Podcast

In this episode, I’m joined by my friend and copy coach Belinda Weaver, as we dive deep into the evolution of our identity as business owners, how to evolve your marketing so that it keeps attracting your ideal clients, and why growth requires letting go – so you can catapult forward.

We explore how to get comfortable with controversy, stop letting fear of trolling stop you, embracing change, and standing firm in your values as you evolve your business into an authentic expression of who you are.

You’ll learn:

  • What’s changed in marketing – what’s working right now, and the common trap that most owners fall into, that while kill your marketing effectiveness.
  • Diagnosing the issue if your marketing keeps attracting wrong-fit clients.
  • How to overcome the fear of judgement when marketing your business online – plus the secret to overcoming intense self-consciousness.
  • How to work WITH your vulnerability, not against it.
  • The importance of having a growth mindset that allows you to try on new versions of your identity instead of staying stuck.
  • The importance of having mentors, especially when you’re feeling stuck, scared, or overwhelmed with decisions.
  • Why everything you were taught about ‘staying the course’ is likely wrong – and why flexibility and openness is increasingly important.
  • Our business retreat in Joshua Tree, California – and how embracing ‘selfish’ has changed everything for both of us.

If you’re ready to see the bigger vision for yourself and your business, you’re going to love our upcoming retreat in Joshua Tree, this coming October. Join us at the Vision Unbound Retreat this October. Spots are limited, and the earlier you book, the better your price.

Transcript

Transcript
Brook McCarthy
Welcome to meaningful work, remarkable life. I’m your host, Brooke McCarthy. And I’m a business coach, trainer and speaker. Living and working on the unseeded lands of the camaraderie people here in Sydney, Australia. In this podcast, we explore the paradoxes inherent in working for love. And money, magnifying your impact and doing work you. Feel born to do. We explore the intersections of the meanings we bring to work and the meanings we derive from work.
Brook McCarthy
I am so excited to introduce you to Belinda Weaver. Hopefully you know her already. And you’ve heard of her. Belinda is a. I’m gonna call it Bill. Throughout the session today. So just proposing that Bill is a copy coach. Helping aspiring and working copywriters to build a business that fuels their life. Rather than burning them out. With thirteen years in the business of writing, Belinda has courses, coaching, mentoring, that builds skills and confidence. She is an Aussie redhead living in California with her puck, two daughters and husband listed in order of neediness in Pub first.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah, 100%.
Brook McCarthy
Like to make things tricky. Look, now we met. I’ve no need for younger. Yeah, we met 2011. I think we’ve decided. Yeah. So 2011, which is the older, those are the Internet. We met on a platform which no longer exists. That’s how old it was. It was Google plus. It was Google’s third attempt. At a social media platform and that is now defunct, and Kate, too, brought us together. So she kind of rounded up a group of us. I think they’re about 36. 37 of us. All kind of creative copy people, Internet, digital people who were self-employed way back when. And we spent, I don’t know about you, but I used to keep that Google Plus group open all day long pretty much.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah, I think it was my first experience of having a community like a really supportive community cause I was still a new copywriter as well, so I felt. I felt a bit intimidated to be in the space, but I’ve been in business long enough that I also felt comfortable with those two things can coexist, but I felt it was so nice to hang out and. Cat in a private, not public space. Incredibly useful. We shared tips. We shared advice we ranted to each other and you know, it was also that experience of being in a space where you all lift each other up. And I remember we met for dinner in Melbourne. We did. I remember that so so clearly.
Brook McCarthy
100%. Tell me what you remember that. Night. We’ve been mates online for some years by then and then finally we met face to face for the first time in a little from in.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah, we. Melbourne. Yeah, we were friends enough that we met up, but not friends enough that I wasn’t a little bit shy. And a bashful and what I remember from that night is you asking me. If I got over the the midday ************ stage and that listeners is Brooke McCarthy in a nutshell, and I remember I remember going I I was shocked to my boots but also this is a woman I like. I like this woman and we’ve been firm friends ever since.
Brook McCarthy
You know, laser corners has a similar story, something outrageous that I said to her the very first time that we had a conversation. I think it’s song. Yeah. I listen as and I can explain myself, I ************. I’m not going there, but I really hate small talk because I feel. You know, even though I look very socially confident, sometimes I feel really awkward in that small talk. Getting to know your situation. And I think my tolerance for small talk is a lot lower than a lot of peoples. So I have this habit.
Speaker
Of trying to.
Brook McCarthy
Bolt right over the awkwardness of intimacy and jump straight into the deep stuff, and I often say **** that I kind of walk away from and think my God, what was I thinking? So it can work really, really well. In the case of, you know, you and Lisa caught off, it worked, it worked well. But there’s other. Times where I walk away and I think everybody hates me. What a dumb thing to say. Why did I do that? And I’ve got this massive vulnerability hangover, you know of going ohh.
Belinda Weaver
But you know it. It’s a shortcut to figure out your try, because there’s people who will either. Be repulsed by it or will go straight to you and that’s you know, I think if you can get that out of the way really early in the process, it’s a winner.
Brook McCarthy
Totally. I’ve got another one for you. If you wanna try it on the sides. Next time you meet somebody and you’re thinking, oh, yeah, I think I like this. Person. Maybe they could be a friend. Say that you’re interviewing. Friends and that you’ve currently got a position open. And see how they respond. Nice.
Belinda Weaver
I’m gonna try that.
Brook McCarthy
And that’s the 1st.
Belinda Weaver
Test well, I saw something and it was ages ago and it was like a conversational experiment where in the shortest period of time your conversation challenge is to go as deep as you possibly can, which means you’ve got to. Ask these vaulting questions.
Speaker
And. Just.
Belinda Weaver
Shortcut all that kind of small toughness where you try and find out and you go as deep as possible, which means you get as interesting as possible. Yeah, as quickly as possible. And I’ve tried that out a few.
Brook McCarthy
Times totally. And to add a little bit to that, if you can make your question deep but also specific because.
Belinda Weaver
Yes.
Brook McCarthy
There’s nothing more annoying than somebody asking you a really deep, really broad big, vague question. Like how are you? I hate that question. I hate it because if you catch me on, you know, in a particular mood. I’m like, that’s gotta be the hardest question to answer in the world. I don’t know where to start. I don’t know where to end. I don’t know. Where to go with it? You know it’s it’s.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Brook McCarthy
The the hugeness of it that makes it challenging and painful and difficult. So if you can make it deep and specific then put them with gas. But anyway I think we could talk for hours. Let’s just jump on in because we’ve got so much to discuss and I cannot wait. So you and I are collaborating on a business retreat which is getting. Us we’re very excited. Mm-hmm. It’s over in Joshua tree, CA. Please kind of be listening to this. You’re probably thinking, who are these two whack. Jobs. This sounds like an excellent idea, or you’re thinking I would rather stick needles in my eyes right now. But what I’d love to start with is. Marketing, because this is what we do. These are our kind of skills apart from, you know, conversation. How do you get over your fear of judgement when you’re marketing yourself?
Belinda Weaver
I think it’s in. It’s in. It’s in doing it because there’s a. There’s that bit before you actually take action. Schrodinger’s Post where it’s either a wild success or a wild failure, but you’re not actually doing anything, so it’s it’s either in both and I think it’s in taking action. Then, looking at the aftermath, which is usually ohh, the world kept turning. Ohh not many people actually saw it. Ohh I did not die and possibly even wow. I started the conversation. Yeah. And so it’s in the taking action that I build my tolerance for fear. But it’s in that kind of looking at what happened next that I realise I’m not actually being judged. And if I am. **** ***. Like if you’re judging me for getting out and marketing my business and trying to get in front of people who I would love to work with or presenting an. Offer that scoops. Up people who are ready to say yes. Providing those opportunities that we’re not a good fit, that’s OK. You can just move along. Yeah. And I’m very passive about that as well. Like, I I work with copywriters. You know, I’m a copy coach and everyone has this kind of fear and it keeps them stuck as if the whole of the Internet is going to stop what they’re doing because you did an Instagram. Story. Yeah. In truth, no one’s watching. No one else really cares. Everyone else is minding their own business. I’m sorry. That realisation helps me actually taking action and the reminder that the results come from. Getting the marketing out there.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah, 100%. Did they get paid for being likeable. So tell me, have you ever had that experience where you have got pushed back where people have, you know, perhaps slammed the door on the way out of unsubscribing from your newsletter or, you know, left Shirty remarks on your social media posts?
Belinda Weaver
No. I joke often that I’m not interesting enough to get trolls. Because because now it hasn’t like I. Ohh like maybe once or twice where someone’s you know said something. I think I don’t even remember if they have. It’s not something I have received been on the receiving of regularly. Yeah, which kind of makes me feel good. And if it has ever happened, I’ve kind of shielded myself or I’ve gone. I’m not your cup of tea. I’m OK not being everyone’s cup of tea. There’s plenty of other coaches. There’s plenty of other groups. There’s plenty of other mentors. There’s plenty of other riders. Just go and find someone who’s your cup of tea. Yeah, and which is also. A great, you know, thing to embolden your marketing like you just need to find the people who are your cup of tea and you’re theirs about you. Have you ever had? A bad experience on mine.
Brook McCarthy
Oh, so yeah, 100%. So I did want someone and signed the door on their way out of unsubscribing. Who said, you know, I signed up for this newsletter and now you are marketing and selling to me and.
Belinda Weaver
I’m how dare you.
Brook McCarthy
Do you realise I was a business coach and that I teach marketing and?
Speaker
Looks. Feels like when you visit.
Brook McCarthy
A ball somewhere along the way. I, but yeah, I mean, I’ve played. I’ve had multiple trolls and comments on social media posts and I have been, you know, currently my social media performance is commenting on other people’s posts and you know, unfortunately I stupidly commented on somebody else’s posts. And got a lot of pushback and hate for that, but I’ve also commented on other people’s posts and got a lot of love for it, commented on someone’s post too written one of those. Madding. You know sentiments about everything happens for a reason. And I’m like, oh, no way. You don’t get away with this. And I said something like. Well, yes, but what about people that are suffering right now? Like, is that, did they bring that on themselves? Like, should they be looking for meaning in this in this terrible suffering? One called me a peanut, which is still my.
Belinda Weaver
Favourite. Yeah. Love that.
Brook McCarthy
Peanut, I’m like, ohh, that’s like cool. And then somebody responded and they said actually, thanks so much. I’ve got stage 4 breast cancer and when I see these kind of posts, they hit me in the guts. And so then I was hit in the guts because I’m like, oh, my God, I need to. I need to now. Not managed, but you know I’ve got a duty of care here. And I think this doesn’t really get discussed about the disgust nearly enough. It’s there’s a lot of beer of trolling there is, I believe, an overblown fear of trolling. There’s a lot of self censorship amongst business owners, and particularly women in business. But we don’t actually talk nearly enough. I think about the fact that when you are using social media well, it should be provoking conversation. You need engagement to have the algorithm working in your favour to get visibility and reach, and this is an opportunity for your thinking.
Speaker
Oh.
Belinda Weaver
To get better, yes. Absolutely. And it’s also I it can cause I think through the evolution of your busy. You can get clearer on what your values are. I know that’s been the case for me if you’d ask me in the first couple of years. What are your core? Values. Ohh I don’t know, but you figure it out and you figure it out by being kind of that finding those pressure points and there are some conversations where I’m like, Oh yeah, no, I completely disagree with this. He like? Oh, he’s a pillar. Really. I’ve got something that I really stand up for and I stand for and I’m not going to back down on that and that’s really great to discover and the test becomes, are you going to put your neck on the line for it? Yeah. And it’s OK not to, because sometimes you need to, like, for me I’m a I’m a percolator. It’s a bit of a slow thinker. Sometimes I need to kind of think through. I like to think through my opinion before. Before it gets taken down, and I think sometimes people jump on comments without thought and just razor. Other people, rather than having a conversation about it. Yeah. So I I admit to having a bit of fear about that. Yeah, I’ll have those conversations in my head. Thank you.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah. And you know, and I think this is kind of, yeah, if we’re getting to the heart of the matter. Of marketing, you know, and if we swap out marketing to communication, which I think is a much more accurate word when we’re communicating on the Internet and we’re communicating with the purpose of hopefully attracting people into our business and perhaps a fraction of those people might buy something from us. There is this constant tension that I see. Between I wanna be professional. I wanna be taken seriously. I don’t want. To go off half. Cops. I do want to be conscientious and thoughtful and deliberate in what I say and the fact that on the other end of the spectrum, we have really boring marketing, which makes that you are basically marketing to yourself.
Speaker
MHM. Yes.
Brook McCarthy
You are.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah.
Brook McCarthy
Gently posting missives on the Internet that are just the elevator music of the Internet. Nothing is happening. No one is seeing them. No one is responding. So can you talk to that a little? That tension between, you know, needing to cut through the noise, needing to say something worth listening to and that, you know, I want to be professional. I want to be conscientious. I. Want to be thoughtful?
Belinda Weaver
Well, I think the code of being professional and conscientious and thoughtful is also a bit wanting to be like. And not wanting to rock the boat because you know, I have this tension as well. So I I know this feeling where ohh I joked about having the conversation in my head where I’ll see something and I’ll respond to it, but then I won’t actually put myself into the conversation. But what I’ve also found. Is that when I do put myself in the conversation and I am respectful to the discussion happening and respectful to the opinion of the person who’s posted. Then, just like you had in the comments, people will come and say that’s that’s my vibe. And so when I’m looking at that tension, I have to ask myself if the attraction of people who share my beliefs and values is worth potentially being being uncomfortable. In the conversation and discussion. And that comes down to it’s either yes or it’s no and. Sometimes I think I like to try these things a little bit at a. Time. So you can be part of a conversation, maybe a little bit later. Maybe you’re not the first to post, but then again, you look around and you’re like, ohh, this actually sparked more interesting conversations. And now I’m in touch and connected with more people who I didn’t know before that was worth it. And so and again. It validates the idea that ohh yeah, I do actually have an opinion because I think that’s also part of it. The concern that. Ohh. Someone’s going to tear me down and tell me that I don’t actually have a valid opinion. And so when you see content where you’re like, this is provocative. And I have a feeling, and I have a response to this. It’s OK to be part of the conversation and hold up the respectful boundaries that you have. And the rewards are on the other side of it. And I think it’s just OK to experiment and try it out the other side of it is you don’t have to post marketing. That’s provocative in order to be.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah.
Belinda Weaver
To attract your vibe. But the point is not to pull back. Yeah, and and dim your light a little bit and dim your opinion and vanilla it out. Yeah, and round out the edges. So it’s just boring because you’re worried you’re not going to be liked.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah, 100%. And I think you made an excellent point there, which I just want to. The in our highlight, which is that controversy for controversy sake, you know, being provocative for the sake of you know provocation. Is an idiotic move. It is not going to help breed trust. I remember in the middle of March 2020 a business coach that I followed on the Internet and part of the reason I followed her is because she was provocative and she was interesting and she would go out on them and she would say outrageous things. But she got on a flight in the middle of March 2020. And she flew to London. She was pretty much turned around and had to fly back to Australia immediately like I think she was there for two or three days, but I was like, that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. Like, not the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. But it it serves no purpose apart from this person is a drama queen and I don’t have a lot of tolerance for drama Queens. I love difficult conversations. I love tricky conversations. I love complex conversations. I’m not scared of an argument. I’m not scared of hiding the motion. I will absolute. Really. You know, that’s something that’s I’ve kind of grown up with, but somebody who deliberately goes out of their way to stir the pot and create controversy and drama and tension for the purpose of adrenaline is, you know, I I don’t. Have any tolerance? Or time for those kinds of people.
Belinda Weaver
No. I think in your marketing. What you have to figure out is. Is what are some bold statements that you can make? What are some pillars that are part of the core part of your business? What are the things that you won’t back away from and that you won’t change your mind on and they can actually form part of your call message where you’re like, you know, my hot take or. My controversial take is I don’t go. I don’t believe what the other people in my industry are saying about this and there’s a long moment in our business development where we can go, maybe we’re wrong, maybe we’re wrong because we think something a little bit.
Speaker
Yeah.
Belinda Weaver
Different, but that’s when you can actually lean in and yeah, find people.
Brook McCarthy
That’s what I’ve found. Is like I I’ve found it to be a really lonely path when everybody seems to be seeing from the same hymn sheet and they’re all heading off in that that direction and you only you appear to be the only person who’s like. No, I disagree. Like, this is a terrible. Idea like why? Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you interested in this? Why do you think this is? You know, good. And when in those instances when I have had the audacity? To speak up and verbalise the contrary opinion and my hand has been shaking like this is not easy stuff. I might you know, there is multiple times where my hands over the publish or the send button and I’ve you know, I’ve spoken to you or others that I trust and I’ve said, is this a good idea? Can you just have a look at it for me? Can you just make sure it doesn’t sound smug or. Condescending or any of those? Things. And people by now, I think you can do it. And I press senator, I press publish. That always has the biggest effects because that’s when I get responses on my marketing from people that say thank God you said that because I thought I was the only one that believed this. I thought I was alone here and now I can see. I’m no longer alone and. The feeling then is, you know, massive like, I feel like I’ve actually done something meaningful, something valuable. You know, I’ve made people feel less alone. Great, because I I’m very used to that feeling of feeling like an alien, that I’m all alone and that. You know that that nobody loves me. Then you know like I’m I’m kind of a minority of one and it’s not. It’s not a fun.
Belinda Weaver
Fun feeling? No, but that’s, you know, it’s a totally different style of marketing that does require some courage and that courage can come with a bit more experience under your belt as well. But there’s also a letting go of what happens next. I think when you hold on too tightly into this crafted experience. Like sometimes it’s not gonna work. Well, sometimes you might have to have a difficult conversation. Sometimes no one’s gonna see it. And it was just like the biggest flappy. Hot air balloon. But you just go look, I’m gonna try something. I really believe this. I’m standing true and I’m standing in what I. Stand for, I said the word stand too many times, but you can pass that for yourself. But that’s when you can also go. Let’s just see what happens.
Brook McCarthy
So what are you saying to copywriters to clients who are really struggling to let go of that need to know the outcome and need to control the response of other people?
Belinda Weaver
No one’s looking anyway. Yeah, I mean, I I make it sound a bit silly, but when copywriters and the people in my coaching groups like, should I? Should I start a blog? Should I start an email? Should I? Should I start a podcast? I’m like yes.
Speaker
Yeah.
Belinda Weaver
Do it and you know the cool thing is right, no one’s gonna be paying attention to you right now because we’re all too busy doing our own thing. And I call it. It’s like practising your speech to an empty room. Yeah, right. You get to become a better writer. You get to become a better emailer, Blogger, podcaster, content creator, marketer. You get to figure out.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah, yeah.
Belinda Weaver
Your messaging and your pillars and all that kind of stuff, yes and no. One’s really looking. So by the time you start to attract an audience, yes. You’re in the flow of it. Then you’re confident you’ve you’ve systemised it, and then you’re moving to the next level of figuring out what is actually really important to you, like you’ve worked through all the vanilla, beige crap. Yeah, when not many people are paying attention. Yeah.
Brook McCarthy
And look, you know to to make. The point again because it needs to be made again. There is no point in in diligently marketing your business if it is not leading to inquiries to you. If it is not resulting in inquiries in the inbox or your DM’s or whatever, you are wasting your time and so you know gold stuff have been consistent. But you need to shake it up. So I wanna ask you, why do you think the evolution of marketing is like well, we have AI, you know tools that are making it really, really easy to do all this marketing on our behalf while. We I don’t. Know pick our toenails. What do you think the next evolution of marketing is going to be about?
Belinda Weaver
This is a sidebar I want. AI and robots to like, do my laundry so that I can be creative and write and not do my writing to free up time for my laundry.
Brook McCarthy
Ideally I’m with you.
Belinda Weaver
Look, I think we. So many of us, like I use AI tools as well, and it’s just more and more business owners are going. Isn’t this great? Yeah, I can just get it to write this thing or have this idea and all that kind of stuff. But we’re all pulling from the same data set. And so while it’s always improving. And I’m very excited by that. There is a genericness to it. And so I think the evolution in marketing. Is going to be in personal stories, personal brands, and this is this is not a news story. We’ve always said people buy from people, but more and more it will be. Personal moments from the humans behind a business that will spark greater connections, and we’ve always had it, but it will become more and more important as we can get ChatGPT to write, show notes and emails and briefs and descriptions and all that kind of stuff. It’s. Yep, they’re all right, but. All right, isn’t going to be good enough to stand.
Brook McCarthy
Out. Yeah, especially with an economic downturn. It’s going to be even more important. So what? Would you say? Then to clients and owners who are, you know, say, well, Bill, I’m just not that interesting. My personal story is not that unusual. I don’t really know why anyone would be attracted to my personal story and why that’s relevant to marketing my business. OK. Bill, I I believe that you have a point about the value of your professional reputation and personal. Sorry, but what if I’m, you know what? If I’m dull, what do I have to go and dye my hair pig or get some tattoos like help?
Belinda Weaver
Me out here. That’s a good question. Like I call this making yourself choosable because I have a big thing where people. Get stuck going. I’m not different. I’m not unique. I’m not interesting. Right. But. There are lots of different ways that you can showcase how you’re running an awesome business, how you’ve solved problems for other people, and how you are actually your own vibe that will have people go. You’re the one for me, so you know, you no one’s dull, no one’s dull.
Brook McCarthy
Great. Yeah.
Belinda Weaver
Everyone’s got their own vibe and if you. If you go rock climbing and you’re an adrenaline junkie and that will attract people who are like minded. If you love to knit and read and build blanket for it, then there are people out there who are like you are my person. Whatever it is you like to do. Yeah. And these I call these like little Velcro hooks. You know, you put little Velcro hooks out there because the right kind of people are like. Excellent. Idon’t want a crazy extrovert. I’m an introvert. I’m looking for someone like me and vice versa. Yeah. And So what? I’ve read a book called Story Worthy by Matthew *****. And one of the greatest things from that book that I took was this. A story is a 5 second moment and you have to choose what leads up to that. And the question you can ask yourself is what’s the most interesting thing that happened to me in the last 24 hours?
Speaker
I think.
Belinda Weaver
Have to be super interesting, but it’s. Just stuff that. Happens and for me, you know, my life isn’t super interesting or glamorous, but when I talk about running my business around. My family and that I have a pug and how I love Doctor Who. Stuff like that causes I would lose your puzzles, but that’s it. They become like little dog whistles for people who are like, oh, I think we’re the same kind of person. Yeah. And that’s what we’re talking about. It’s not the craft of your story. You can work on that. Yeah. You can get better at telling stories and emails, etcetera, etcetera. But you have to have. The courage to stand out from behind your business and say this is me. This is who I am. This is what I. Do and then you back. It up of course with. Here’s how I help people. Here’s some other people that I’ve helped and. This is what? I’m like this is my vibe and if you’re ticking all those three boxes for people, they’ll say yes because when we’re looking for a service provider. I don’t want to search the whole Internet, I’m not necessarily. Looking for the best, yeah. I’m looking for the right people.
Brook McCarthy
We can’t know who the best is. No, let’s just put that out. Unless you’re an Olympian, we cannot ever know. Who the best copywriter is so?
Belinda Weaver
And we we choose people for different reasons. And so that’s it. It’s not like I if you keep saying I’m not interesting, I’m not dull then you you’re just turning away opportunities for your right people. Yep. The Velcro hook with.
Brook McCarthy
You all. There’s so much good stuff there. I want to highlight a couple of, she said. He said you are your own vibe. Love that. Love that for you love that. For me, love that for everyone. I’ve also really like what you pulled from story worthy about the story is a 5 second moment that is spot on. I wanna add also. That I am so sick of listening to the stories of type of personalities where they wake up at 4:00 AM, they wake up at 5:00 AM, they run back once they, you know, hike Mount Everest for a good time. And they do something big and dramatic that I have absolutely no way of relating to. I’m not. I’m not interested in it. I don’t find it relevant. You know, only then I scratch my head and go, wow, there’s some very different kinds of people out there in the world. Like that has no bearing on my life or interest. But also I wanted to come back to.
Speaker
Yeah.
Brook McCarthy
Divine and the five second moments, and the telling of stories, which is what you know modern day marketing is all about right. So good and kind of introduced this idea. And others that you know, marketing modern day marketing is storytelling. So I think that it’s appealing to other people when you’re a storyteller because it demonstrates your engagement and and enthusiasm for your life. And I think there are so many. People who are, you know, zombies in their own lives and you can see those kinds of people that don’t really look you in the eye or if they do, there’s a big screen up there. They’re not really that animated or interested. They don’t appear to have any passions or interest.
Speaker
Just.
Brook McCarthy
You know, they’re certainly not interested in you. And I think there is something inherently appealing about people that are in their own lives. They’re living in the moment. They are experiencing life in technicolour and they have the generosity to share little snippets of that on the Internet.
Belinda Weaver
And whether it’s like whether it’s rock climbing or camping or knitting it doesn’t. It doesn’t matter. Whatever you love to do, whatever you love about your life, whatever moments you have that frustrate you and make you mad and upset, it might feel like minutiae. But you know those. Are often the moments that people like, Oh my God, that’s my life too. That’s my it doesn’t have to be big and grandiose, but I have. Not only chosen service providers and people. Yeah. Something we have in common some way we’ve connected, but I’ve opted to pay them more money. Yeah, because of that. It comes down, ultimately, if the price is the same and the proof is the same and everything like the process is the same, I’m going to choose someone where I’m like. Of. I found out you’ve got a dog. So you know it, it can come down to the most surprising thing. So it’s that. Courage to kind of put yourself out there a little bit as an individual. Yeah. And step out from behind your brand a little bit. Totally. Like, that’s the connection point.
Brook McCarthy
But I’ll just add one final funding detail. I think that life is attracted to like absolutely our values, I believe need to be the same. Our values need to be in alignment with the people that we’re doing business with. I think that’s a non negotiable. And I also want to make the point that some people we are attracted by people that are different from us. So we’re attracted also by people that have an attribute or, you know, a skill, a way of looking at the world that is different from ours that we find fascinating, interesting and potentially want to emulate. Yes, you.
Belinda Weaver
Look, that’s me to you.
Brook McCarthy
So like that’s, you know, that’s a that’s a point too. You don’t have to like, you know, meet someone and say, oh, you don’t like dogs. And I’m a dog lover, so you can’t be my client. That’s not the point. The point is that the more of yourself you put into your marketing, yeah, that’s going to work to magnetise the right people to you and.
Speaker
It.
Brook McCarthy
To repel those energy vampires from you. Now I wanna turn left or right, or you know, whatever. I wanna make a little turn into a slightly different topic and ask you about. The evolution of your identity, the evolution versus the evolution of your life, you know before and after kids, perhaps before and after having a business before and after, you know, attending a retreat in Hawaii, a business retreat in Hawaii. You’re collaborating business retreat in in California. Can you share an experience of when somebody else, perhaps a coach, perhaps a mentor of yours? Saw you as different to how you saw yourself, so you have a vision of yourself. I am, bill. This is who I am. And this visional coach said. Ohh, well, that’s interesting because this is actually how I see you.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah, this happens to me all the time. Actually working with coaches and mentors and I love being provoked.
Speaker
Because I love.
Belinda Weaver
Into seeing myself differently, like I I might state a goal for example, and my mentor will reflect back at 10X version of that. And and I’m shocked, like I’m. I’m shocked by the idea. And then I start processing the idea. And that version of myself and then I kind of get used to the idea and then I try it on and I kind of get excited by the idea. And I start asking myself, well, why not like that? Why not? I I am. I’m often have people who who see me differently to my. The way I see myself and I love being surprised. Why? But that’s the process I go through where I’m. Like Oh my. God no. Ohh, maybe. Actually. Why not? Yes. And I kind of integrate my own version of it, but but I also what’s an important step for me is paying attention to the resistance that comes up. Paying attention to the stories and I try not to believe the ******** I peddle myself. Yeah, but it often takes someone else to go. You could absolutely do that, or OK, that’s an idea, but that’s a a bit of a small idea, right? How about this version? Yeah. And usually there’s a lot of resistance that comes up. And then I’m then I’m excited by that extension.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah. And I look, I think what you’ve just described there is the difference between, you know somebody that has a fixed mindset and somebody that. Has an open minds. That growth mindset, yeah, growth mindset, somebody that has a fixed mindset is very much. This is me. I’m, I’m the kind of person who I like this. I dislike this very identify, you know, identifies strongly with their likes and dislikes and you know it’s fixed in a stone. It cannot be moved. It is how it is, and oftentimes those people see it as a matter of principle or they derive great pride from the facts that they don’t change. And I think you and I are the opposite of this with this ID, yeah.
Belinda Weaver
Yeah.
Brook McCarthy
Like what you. Just described ohh. Let me try on the sides and it’s, you know, it’s a journey. You’re not necessarily going yay straight away, you know, that tells a lot about you to me and everyone. It’s listening. So I mean, how does it make you feel when somebody have you ever had, like the opposite? Maybe somebody has said Ohh, you know you’re the kind of person who when they put you in a box and you’re like hey, just a SEC, this is not my box. This is not comfortable here.
Belinda Weaver
You know, I’m not sure I’ve ever had anyone do that. Or or if. They have. This goes back to our earlier conversation about you. Negative people in my comments, if they have, I’ve instantly dismissed it. Right. Yeah. No, no. And I know I’ve always been surrounded by family members, partners. And, you know, parents and things like that. Who who have honestly filled me with a almost unnecessary level of self confidence. Like that I can do anything quite naively so, but I know a lot of people are surrounded. They don’t have that strong support base and we we need a hype crew. We we need people who will say.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah. Yes.
Belinda Weaver
This is this is bigger than you imagine that come through this door. There’s a whole big world out there and we need a hype crew of people who. Go. You’ve totally. Got this? Yeah. You know, I’ve always found it useful because I feel like every five years, I kind of outgrow my identity. I tend to get a new website, I get new photo shoot done. And I’m trying to create the next version. Yeah, of myself. And I’m doing all that work of going. What is this next era? Right. What is this next version and vision look like? But it’s not a necessarily forever idea, but it’s definitely adding on and growing and iterating and change. And it requires a bit of work. Yep, to do that. And it’s that funny moment where whenever I get a photo shoot. Done like I. Don’t get them done very often. Usually like I’m getting a new website. I need some new photos and they show me the photos and it’s almost like I can’t look at them and like, Oh my God, look at that person. He’s so confident. Yeah. Yeah, it’s almost unbearable. But then you grow into that version. Yeah. Yeah. And you become that person.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah. And I think, you know, I think this is one of the key. I mean you’ve gone straight into it here. This is one of the key values as is. It the key value of our retreat in Joshua Tree is that liminal space between what’s gone before me and what’s coming up in front of me, knowing, of course, that we can’t know the future, but this limit of space, which is the the moment of great possibility. The transition. And in that space, you know, we often rush or like we have these liminal spaces all the time, every time we exit a room, enter another room. Anytime the day begins, the day ends, like we’re constantly going through them in our spaces. But most of the time we’re in a rush. We don’t notice, you know, we’re we’re grabbing our keys to hold that. Gifts of not just the the liminal space, but the people, such as you and I, the others in the group, and it’s not going to be a large group who are going to hold that say. 50.
Belinda Weaver
Hmm.
Brook McCarthy
While we dream being together and I say to safety because I think for a lot of people. They are way more comfortable playing small. They are way more comfortable, you know, commiserating or we are wide for negativity. It can feel extremely unsafe to set big goals. It can feel extremely unsafe to be in environments where we’re like, you know, these are people. Are these, you know, are these people going to actually making you feel better or worse about myself? Are these people? Yeah. You know, making me feel. Like an alien. Like I’m the only widow in the world. Or like I belong, that I, you know I am needed. I’m wanted. I’m seeing for all that I am including the ugly bits including the mistakes including the regrets including the crappy branding photos that I used. You know, for weighting.
Belinda Weaver
Who have them. But that’s you know that sense of why not? Why not me? And why not now? No. Yeah, let’s just have a let’s experiment with this.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah. So why do you think this evolution of your identity and you know, we haven’t put it in this many words up until now. But I think this has been the thing of the conversation. You’ve said many things that illustrate the evolution of your identity in business and in life. Why do you think that’s important for business owners in 2023? It’s currently May 32,024. Sorry, 2024. Why is this necessary or useful or valuable? Or even, you know, worthy of conversation?
Belinda Weaver
Because life’s too bloody short to be doing something that you don’t want to do. But I especially think since the pandemic, well, a lot of us are going, why are we working so hard?
Speaker
Yes.
Belinda Weaver
Why aren’t I having more fun? I wanna have more fun. I’m working a lot. I’m burning out. Yeah. And this is where we need to start making some critical decisions about what we want from our business, what our business is going to give to our lives and what our business can make possible. Because our business is an asset. It’s not an all consuming. Yeah, thing it shouldn’t be. But we have to work really hard. Yeah, to not let it consume all of us. Cause you and I both like we. We work hard. We love what we do. Yeah. And we it can be all consuming if we let it. But you know, I’m going into summer. I wanna have more fun over summer. I have to be intentional about what? My business. Can deliver? Yeah. To make that possible. And when it comes to identity. It’s that moment of going how long am I going to pretend to be? Someone else? Yeah. How long am I going to have a business that I don’t really want? When am I going to start making decisions, have everything I want and ask why can’t I?
Brook McCarthy
Why can’t I live for a month of the year in South America and another month of the year? In Europe and, you know, have a little couple of weights in Sri Lanka or India on the way through and why don’t we stop over in Vietnam on the way home. You know, why can’t I get paid for my ideas rather than, you know, the output of my hours? So the the evolution of your identity, I think is you know, as you so aptly describes, importance, if you have that growth mindset, if you know that. Not only do things change around us, but that we are able to change and if I can kind of take. That idea and bring it all the way back to what we first discussed, which was, you know, opinions on the Internet, personal stories, points of view, you know, shaking the ground. That’s what I sample. This is what I sound against. It also has to do with the courage to change your mind.
Belinda Weaver
Hmm.
Brook McCarthy
Can you speak a little bit to that?
Belinda Weaver
That can feel really scary as well, because especially when we’re commenting to be open. To be open to have your mind changed opens you up to the world and you know, I probably learned this most with kids. Yeah, like my ability to look my kids in the eye and go. You know what? I’ve changed my mind. It’s OK to change my mind. I thought. I thought we were gonna. I thought I thought this.
Brook McCarthy
Yes.
Belinda Weaver
Now I’ve changed my mind and now we’re going to go and do this. That is not giving in. It’s not giving up power. No, it’s being flexible and flowing, and I think that goes back to this idea of not holding on too tightly. It’s OK to go. This is what I think. I I don’t agree and have someone come back and have you go. You know what? You’ve changed the way I think. And that’s it’s that. Idea that just because you think something now, it doesn’t mean you’re going to think it forever and it’s incredibly empower and exciting to be open to having your mind changed. You just have to let go of the fact it’s not power struggle. Opinions are. Not power struggles.
Brook McCarthy
No. Yeah. And it’s it’s also scary too, because there’s a process of grief, right? And you’re like ohh I know in my in my business I’ve had a lot of. In certain ways that I’ve done, things and the values that I believe they demonstrate and then upon reflection and time, I think you. Know what that was actually. Very articulate of my brain, but totally not what I think is true now and it is very discombobulating to come to that conclusion. And and I think it takes a lot of.
Speaker
Yeah.
Brook McCarthy
You know, if I can blow my own trumpet, it takes a lot of courage. To do that because it’s easier to dig your heels in, I think and say, oh, no, I’m just going to continue as is because I don’t want to, you know, have egg on my face. I don’t want to.
Belinda Weaver
Feel like a novelty, especially if you’re in a position in your business where you are in air quotes and expert like you are saying. I know a lot about this. It can feel like. Any change in that your position? Is a weakening of your authority and your credibility, but it’s absolutely not. I think you just have to just let go. Let go because it’s that whole analogy with the Reed very, very strong, but very, very bendy too. You can you, those two things can coexist.
Speaker 1
I need.
Brook McCarthy
It’s that life is in the paradox. It’s not in the black and white. So we are going to Joshua Tree, CA. It’s going to be wild and yes away and we are going to enter. The liminal squares. And we are also going to drink cocktails.
Belinda Weaver
Yes, there is hot tub. There is desert, there is silence, there is stars. There’s beautiful accommodation and we whipped up a pretty incredible. You know, agenda.
Brook McCarthy
100% we put a lot of thought into this and I think that, you know, one of the things of the retreat is this idea of retreating back. In order to catapult forward. And trending back into the liminal space, in order to catapult forward with a bold brand and direction whereby your business isn’t just making you an extra flourishing livelihood, but it’s actually a an expression of your values. Of your purpose of your self expression. It is not just paying the bills, but it is actually giving you a hell of a lot of nourishment, and there is that relationship, that healthy relationship where it doesn’t feel like a dysfunctional relationship where you can give, give, give, give, give to your business and clients and then you just. Go. Oh. When will I ever? Be loved in return, you know? Yeah. It feels really uneven. So I cannot wait. I think you’re going to get so much value out of this retreat, especially if you are feeling a sense of stagnation. If you’re feeling a sense of what next. If you’re feeling like you know who are changing and evolving, you know you want something different, but you keep reverting to type. You keep saying the same things and doing the same marketing, which brings the same people. You know you’ve outgrown, you know, you’ve got a new ideal client that’s ready and waiting for you. If only you could get that. You know that message straight. To call the. Then. Thank you so much, Bill. It has been an absolute pleasure and. A privilege, as always. Yes, well, I hope.
Belinda Weaver
I hope all. Your amazing listeners found this useful and I would love to like if anyone wants to reach out and continue the conversation, I am very. Not. In my DMS, no trolling, but no it’s it’s. We’ve covered some really important things and I hope there’s been some moments where listeners have gone. Oh yeah, that’s that’s what I need to do. I need to let go of some of these bags I’m carrying 100% create that business.
Brook McCarthy
Yeah, I’ll find Belinda Wayla on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook. All the good places. A copyright matters is the name of her business. She’s a good egg, which is one of the reasons why we’ve been made for as long as we have, even though we’ve been in between us. Ah, what’s an ocean between friends, and I cannot wait to see you in Joshua Tree CA this October. Thank you so much, Bill.
Belinda Weaver
All right. Thanks, Brooke.
Brook McCarthy
Real quick before. You go if this episode has gotten you thinking, gotten you excited, or has you changing the way that you do business or life, would you do me a super quick favour and write me a short review? Your podcast review means so much to me and it helps other values based business owners. Just like you to find this show, which is a fantastic.
Speaker 1
Gift to me.

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