Transcript

Brook

Welcome to Meaningful Work, Remarkable Life. I’m your host, Brook McCarthy and I’m a business coach, trainer and speaker living and working on the unceded lands of the Camarraygal people here in Sydney, Australia.

In this podcast, we explore the paradoxes inherent in working for love and money, magnifying your impact and doing work you feel born to do. We explore the intersections of the meanings we bring to work, and the meanings we derive from work.

Today, I have a very special guest. And if you’re watching this podcast, listening to this podcast for a while, you would know that I don’t have a lot of guests on this podcast. I really kind of hold back the guest spots for the extra special people.

So I am so excited to introduce to you Shaye Thayer. Would you like to say g’day?

Shaye

Hello. I feel very special, Brook.

Brook

Now Shaye is a fellow financial feminist. She is a consulting CFO for women-led businesses. She’s a fellow Chartered Accountant with two decades of experience who has extensive experience specifically working with founders to build profitable, sustainable businesses that deliver real financial independence.

And I think we bond over this quite a lot. We get angry together. We get ranty together in relation to women in business and the short shrifting that happens. Before I put too many more words in a mouth, I’m just going to shut up for a second and say, welcome.

Shaye

Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. You’re very welcome. I love our honestly like. There’s many things that you and I do together that I thoroughly enjoy, but having a space to be an angry financial feminist is so liberating for me. It’s so good. 

Brook

So fun. Anger is my superpower. I think, you know, I think anger can be really, really useful.

Totally agree. Totally agree. So tell me what led you to developing the business that you have today. What were the key turning points for you?

Shaye

Yeah. So I have had such a mixed bag of experience over my career. I’ve spent most of the time in the finance space, but I spent a number of years in kind of corporate tech and it was corporate tech aimed at helping, I guess my colleagues and peers in the finance profession have more impact with what they do. So kind of get out of the spreadsheets and get into real, you know, helping and change land.

But for a number of those years, I kind of always had this itch that I needed to scratch. I’d had this experience in professional services as a senior woman inside of those organizations that was less than ideal. I’ve had some pretty gross experience, you know, being on the receiving end of, you know, being talked over and mansplained to and minimized and reduced and all the things that I’m sure, you know, lots of those listening to your podcasts, Brook will go, oh yes, I’ve experienced that too.

And there was always this thing for me of I want to help women navigate things better. You know, as I matured as a person and my girls got older, I sort of had this innate sense of wanting to help others not go through some of the garbage that I had to, and also just raise awareness and help them do better with that thing.

And I, for a long time, didn’t have the courage, if I’m really honest, to start my own business. I think for a long time, I knew I was capable and one would expect that I would go all right with, you know, all the experience and the things that I help other people do running their businesses. But there was a point in time where the courage matched up with the kind of itch I needed to scratch because my soul was just craving having this impact in the world.

And you know, perhaps what might’ve been obvious to others, but didn’t become apparent until this moment, was that I just bring my skillset together with my passion and make a business out of it. So that’s kind of how I got here. I could be a fractional CFO for many businesses, but you know, that strong desire to help women navigate the world better. I think a lot of power comes from financial independence and if I can point, you know, my limited number of hours, but you know, my deep expertise and experience at that, then my soul is going to be happy. And it certainly is. I feel like I’ve unlocked that.

Brook 

Absolutely. The journey of building a small business at almost year three is a roller coaster.

Shaye

You’re smiling cause you’re so many years ahead of me, Brook.

Brook 

I did smile! That first three years, it’s intense. Like it’s the hardest, hardest bit. It’s brutal.

Shaye

Yeah. Like really, honestly, it’s been really humbling. You know, I’ve got a lot of experience running other people’s businesses. I feel like I’ve always approached that with empathy and, you know, a deep understanding of what the founders are going through, what the business owners are experiencing, but you really don’t know until you’ve done it. And I tripped over all the things that I knew were coming and, you know, I’ve been fortunate that I’ve known how to get out of them, but it doesn’t mean that I was immune to tripping over them, right? 

Brook

Oh, can we talk about that? Go on. Cause that makes good conversation. And I really like what you just said there, cause I don’t think it’s an isolated experience at all. I have countless conversations with women, specifically women that have come from corporate where they’re like, I don’t get it, Brook. I don’t understand. Like I’ve had this big job, I’ve managed all these teams, I’ve managed million dollar budgets and now I’ve got this little tiny business and I’m petrified and I can’t do anything. Can you talk me through the kind of tripping points in the first three years of business? Like the bigger ones?

Shaye

Yeah, absolutely. I think for many of us, particularly in that corporate to consultant model, the most confident path we have to start is the way it’s always been done. So potentially the way we’ve watched the businesses around us operate, you know, regardless of their size. And typically that looks like, oh, here’s my hourly rate or here’s my daily rate.

And I think the thing that I underestimated — no, so I overestimated at the start, and I frequently have to unwind this with myself, which is why I do it with my clients — is I for some reason thought I had all this imaginary capacity, which I absolutely don’t. I’ve got teenage girls. I am the, you know, mostly the chief of everything at home, which would be a familiar experience for many of your listeners, I’m sure. And no, I don’t even have 40 hours a week to do my work. I don’t. 

And when I think about the time to do client work, there’s also then all that stuff I have to do to actually run my business. So not just press the green button in Xero, but how am I reaching out and finding new clients? What am I doing with my systems and processes? My emails, all the things. So that was absolutely the first thing that I tripped over — complete overestimation of my capacity and not considering that as a ceiling to my earnings. 

So, you know, trading time for money, we literally can’t earn more unless we do more hours. And if we don’t have more hours, then how do we make more money? It’s just this circular, you know, traumatic experience. But yeah, that’s probably the major thing at the start.

And then it was, okay, cool. I know in theory how I’ve helped other businesses kind of build their revenue strategies and whatnot. And most often it was with more people. And I didn’t want a more people business. I wanted a business where I could essentially be solo, or solo-ish.

I made a decision that I love being a leader. I really enjoy leading and growing people. It’s one of my favorite things, but in the context of running my business with all the hats, I didn’t feel like — and I still don’t — I still don’t feel like I have enough emotional capacity to run my business, be the front person, deliver the work and grow a team and grow my girls. This is like a seasonal strategy of Shay — some alliteration there — solo-ish. So making sure that the way that I am engaging with clients actually can pay me within the tiny amount of hours that I’ve got, was a puzzle I needed to figure out really quickly. 

Brook 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And look, I think that’s a really astute point. A lot of people that come from corporate think, well, business means I grow a team. And yet a lot of women specifically start businesses because they don’t want to be managing other people. They’re like, I’m done with managing other people. I don’t want to do this anymore. I want things to be simpler. So yeah, that’s an interesting conclusion to come to pretty early on. 

So you joined my Audacious Mastermind and I think you are just like the embodiment of Audacious. And you said something to me recently, which was really interesting. You said something along the lines of how I’d kind of blown your mind in relation to pricing. 

Shaye

Yes, you did. And I’ve actually got a sticky note. You said, and hopefully I’ve captured this correctly: there is a price point for every client, there is a price point for every customer. And the reason that was so profound for me is I’m a numbers person. Like I will dive into the nth detail of the profitability of the one task that you’re doing within the project to deliver that. But when I zoom out, thinking about it — and I guess it’s a mindset thing — there is absolutely enough clients in the country for me.

And not everything has to be so… it just unlocked possibility. I think it was a scarcity mindset thing and it did, you know, I know that we probably see the same thing on Instagram all the time, but it did unlock that kind of abundance mindset for me and I thought, oh yeah, of course. Like I know it sounds obvious, but I think when we run our own businesses and we overlay that with our conditioning — that maybe we don’t feel comfortable at that price point, or what if someone says I’m not worth that, or what if someone says no and I take it personally — it gets very complex.

Shaye 

It can. That one thing just unlocked everything for me.

Brook

And look, I think that’s funny, because we do tend to get our knickers in a knot when it comes to pricing and we overcomplicate it and we bring in all this emotion and all these values and morals and ethics. And, you know, we make it very heavy.

And I think oftentimes what we miss when it comes to pricing, especially with people from finance — because you’re not my first rodeo with people that specifically have come from the finance world where they love numbers and they’re all across the numbers, but then there’s a bit where pricing stops making sense. 

I oftentimes think about fashion with this. Because I’m not a fashion person. I don’t really get it. I kind of feel like I’m looking at something and going, am I the only person here that just thinks that’s ridiculous? But the pricing — like if you were to break down what the garment costs, and even if you put a hefty margin on top, it still doesn’t add up to the price oftentimes. And yet fashion specifically is something that a lot of people will happily pay that price. They’ll even join a wait list.

And this is something we don’t learn at all as practitioners. And look, maybe the expectation that the firms that we grew up in should transfer some business wisdom is actually misplaced, because no — we’re there to make them money. It’s not their job to teach us how to make money, right? 

And I think that’s been a massive unlock. In finance, we’re really good at helping people keep money and use it and invest it and be smart with it. The unlock for me was the money making skills. I can evaluate the profitability of pricing with my eyes closed, but disconnecting that habit and setting the price rather than going cost plus — that needed some serious unlearning. Like big time.

Yeah. I mean, I don’t think you’re alone there. I think most of us grow up in that industrial complex of, you know, we go to school and we go to work and the day is broken up in lots of eight hours. And of course we’re charging by the hour because, as a service professional, this is how we value stuff. But you kind of unlock a new level of possibility when you divorce your hours from your earnings.

So can we redirect? I want to ask a couple of questions because I’m sure that people would love to hear. I love how you say that businesses that work with a CFO retain more profit. Beautiful. So tell me, for a business owner who is earning less than a hundred K — what do you think the top two things are that that business owner should be focused on to lift their revenue and profits?

Shaye

The very first thing is the thing I got wrong myself. And it is something a hundred percent of the clients that I see struggle with — being really honest and being quite clinical about our available capacity. Really, really genuinely.

And we’ll get to how this translates into keeping more profit. And of course, at that level, that means that’s what we get to pay ourselves. It is about being very honest in understanding what we’ve got available for us to deliver the thing we want to, and also start to remember — before we get into it and forget — that there is a whole other hat we wear as a business owner that is not immediately income generating.

What I mean by that is, if I’m thinking about doing work with clients, I can’t just be thinking about pricing in the moment. I need to be thinking about, well, I had to make this many phone calls and do this marketing, and then there’s all this other stuff that goes into running my business that I know I’m not paying anyone for. But as a soloist in the business, this is taking away from my time to deliver that thing. So looking at capacity and the two hats together is the first thing we need clarity on so that we can then inform how we’re pricing and how we’re delivering services.

The next thing that’s super important is just having some really fundamental, deliberate habits around how we manage cash. So typically what I see a lot of my clients trip over before we’re working together is things like, okay, I’m registered for GST, I don’t have to do anything with that until it comes to the end of the quarter. But when I get there, I don’t have any cash left and I don’t understand why.

So having some weekly and monthly habits around identifying that all the cash in our bank account actually doesn’t belong to us — putting it aside, making sure we’ve got it when we need it — is what I kind of call that cashflow hygiene level. It is habit driven. We’re not talking about complicated spreadsheets or anything. It is a weekly habit that we need to build in there.

Brook

Love it. Love it. Because there are too many nights that I wasted staring into the dark calculating like, okay, well this person owes this much and this much is coming in, so the total that’s owed is da da da da da. Like, oh, if I could have my time over.

And so what about that group of owners — and this is probably the majority of my clients — who are between a hundred and 500K in revenue? What do you think the top two most important things they should be focusing on from a finance perspective are?

Shaye

I think understanding the key financial drivers in their business. What does that mean? I mean, having a really clear and commercial understanding of what their input into the revenue engine of their business is. Practically what that looks like, or what I help my clients do, is: if you couldn’t do the work with clients and you had to pay someone else to do it, what would that cost you? When you look at that and you look at how you price, how you deliver, and how all that comes together — are you really making money in your business? Because if you’re not, and you ever had to do that thing, then we don’t have a sustainable business picture.

So that, as a first exercise, is one of the scary things that I do with my clients, but it’s really necessary. Because although so many of us get used to being the chief of everything, it doesn’t allow us to create a sustainable business. It creates a lot of risk.

I think the other thing to consider is that jumping into hiring more people is something that, in some cases, is the right move, but it feels like this immediate, that’s the way we do it, that’s the only way we can possibly grow, scale and make more money. And I think that is a little bit of conditioning. I think it’s a little bit of that’s what the cool people on the internet say, or whatever. You know, if I have a team, then I’ve made it. I don’t believe that necessarily. It can certainly be part of the solution, but normally what I see as a first lever is service structure and the way that it’s priced.

But underneath that is having those really core tools that allow you to interrogate what you’re doing from a profitability perspective. So what does it cost me to deliver the thing? How many things do I do, or how many things do I want to do? And what is that going to mean at the end of the day for what’s in the bank, what I can earn myself, what profit is left over in my business to reinvest into the next thing.

That shift from I’m building a business to pay myself to I’ve built a business that pays me, now I will build a business that self-funds its own growth — that is a huge shift. There’s a kind of maturity level up there in terms of thinking about the way we use money for investment rather than spending, if you like — a cost mentality.

Brook 

Yeah. That’s a fun stage of business. I shouldn’t grin like this, but it is fun when I think about it. There’s so much opportunity at that stage and so many things you can experiment with, if you do have the right partner that can give you the right confidence.

Yeah, I love that. And I really like what you said about honing your discernment between spending and investing and knowing the difference between those two things. Yeah. I think that’s pretty critical. And also what you said about hiring, because I’ve seen what happens when a business owner who really doesn’t have strong leadership or management skills, and doesn’t have systems and structures set up, adds people to that chaos — it’s just a disaster. So I think it’s easy to just go, okay, well, that’s the next step, that’s what everybody else is doing, without actually taking the time to think things through, starting with: is this what I actually want? Do I actually want to be managing people? Do I want to be hiring people? Do I want to be leading people?

Can you tell our listeners — because every time you do, people go, what? — how many female-owned businesses there are in Australia? What percentage hits the hundred K mark and what percentage hits the million dollar mark?

Shaye

So I’ll tell you the exciting stuff first before I tell you the scary stuff. What’s really cool is that there is a significantly higher proportion of new business owners now that are women. That growth in terms of the entrepreneurship pie is looking really good. And I’m really excited about that, particularly in the demographic of women that are 45 to 55 year olds. That is our fastest growing cohort of entrepreneurs at the moment.

What is fun, but at a headline level — and I’ll have to revisit the ABS data — generally speaking, it’s about 900,000 women-owned businesses in Australia. Only 1% of those businesses turn over more than a million dollars in revenue every year, and 88% turn over less than a hundred grand every year.

Now, this is not about throwing shade and saying that’s not a real business or that’s a failure. I actually see it as the symptom of some really serious structural and systemic challenges and barriers that women face when they’re starting and running their own businesses.

In particular — and I’ll say it with love, but I deliberately say it with criticism — the way that my industry, professional people in finance, are really focused on running commercial businesses themselves means they only work with larger businesses. So this is a huge cohort of businesses that is overrepresented by women that don’t get any support. They don’t get any support and no one wants to help them. And that’s part of why I started my business, because I thought that is not right. I think it’s just because my profession’s not super creative in thinking about different ways that they can work with people.

Brook

Yeah. Interesting. No, I’m a hundred percent with you. I mean, this is the nature of our conversations over Negroni for you and Margarita for me. You know, all of those systemic things that block us and stop us and slow us down.

And what I see is a lot of women start businesses on the back foot. So they don’t start businesses with great excitement thinking, oh, I can’t wait, this is something I’ve been looking forward to for years. They start businesses oftentimes because they’re kind of forced to. They don’t really have a lot of other choice. And that might be because they’ve got young kids and their partner has a big job. It might be because they’ve got a chronic health condition. It might be because they’ve been bullied in the workplace — really, really common. So they’re opening a business already in a kind of defensive way. And it’s not an even playing field, right? You’re starting very much on the back foot.

And when you couple that with the idea that I’m going to start a business because I’m going to be the boss of my own time, it’ll be super flexible and I can do all the things that I need to — either forgetting, misunderstanding, or overlooking the fact that you build two jobs for yourself when you start a business — that kind of becomes the magic storm for it’s a lot harder than I thought. 

We actually spoke about this last week in the context of the accounting industry specifically, because it’s one industry that absolutely works so hard to push women out of firms, out of the profession, just by your standard nine to five in the office, all the leadership looks the same — the middle-aged white man — and misunderstanding that that is literally repelling 50% of the workforce to go and start their own firms, go into commerce, or drop out of the profession altogether. And so it’s just commercially bizarre that firms would still accept that. But to your point, it’s often the thing we feel like we have to do because the other stuff is just not working for our lives.

And I think the systems are broken and we need to keep repeating that. Because sometimes I feel like I’m the only sane person in a room of mass delusion. It’s like, this is ridiculous. Even the fact that we’ve still got school from nine till three and a work day is 8.30 to five — it makes no sense. Anyways, I’m going to get off my soapbox now.

Can you tell us a little bit about what you see is possible with saleable businesses? Because this is a question I’m often asked, where the business owner wants to step away and they’re trying to figure out what their options are. What kind of advice or key things would you suggest that they do before they go to market, so to speak? And where does one go to market?

Shaye 

Yeah, there are about 600 questions in one question there! I think the first thing, when we talk about building a saleable asset, is that the majority of my clients have never even considered that that is a thing or a possibility. And one of my favorite things to do is to plant that seed.

It’s very different from when I used to work with all sorts of different clients. Most of the men were already thinking, yeah, I’m going to sell this one day, payday, you know, cashing in. This very asset building, investment mindset. And I think this comes right back to our conditioning — women are conditioned to be savers and risk averse and agreeable and all the things, which I’m none of — and men are encouraged to invest and take risks and build wealth and all this really powerful stuff.

It’s interesting. I would say that almost every business has the potential to be saleable. Perhaps that doesn’t become obvious when we’re solo or solo-ish, but it absolutely can be possible.

Structurally, I think it’s really important if this is something that a business owner has considered, or at least is embracing in the back of their mind as a possibility for even five or 10 years — is to have a chat with a registered tax agent to make sure, and I know this is boring but it’s important, that the structure that the business lives within will allow it to be sold at some point. It’s much easier to do that early than it is to fix it up later. And there are all sorts of complications that happen there. A registered tax agent is the right person to give that advice.

The second thing, and this kind of permeates through a lot of the way we design our businesses, is — even if we just stick a sticky note on the wall — to remind ourselves that we haven’t built a job for ourselves, we are building an asset. We are building an asset. And the click down on that is everything else is an asset too. So the expertise that I’m pouring into that PDF that I’ve now called a lead magnet — that is an asset because that’s our IP. A program that I’ve built that injects wisdom and lifts confidence and helps others do things better — that’s also an asset. The brand that I build, that might have a name that’s mine or not mine — that is an asset. And if we can start to take that mindset right from the start, it shifts the way we make decisions about how we spend our time in the business.

Getting quite technical now — one of the ways to increase your chances of selling your business at a very nice price, and really capitalizing on all the assets that you’ve built, is to build it so that someone else could pick it up and deliver it. Now, what I mean by that is — and it’s probably very confronting for many of your listeners — if I take a holiday and nothing happens, that’s very hard to buy.

And so one of the key things we do in that scale bucket, where we’ve moved from an identity of a solo operator or owner operator and we’re really starting to put that CEO hat on, is: what are our repeatable processes? How are we delivering these things in a way that starts to become independent from me as a human? It’s not that we give it to robots, but it might be that we have excellent SOPs, or we have proprietary frameworks, or we’ve boxed up our expertise and turned it into assets and products that could be sold rather than, again, trading our time for money. All of those kinds of things are going to increase our likelihood of getting a good price for our business.

Being deliberate about a program to be sale-ready is something that is normally necessary, unless you’ve done it before, or you have a business partner that’s done it before. There are some deliberate steps to ready the organization or the business for sale.

Working with a broker can be a good option. A thing is only worth what someone will pay for it. And that is very true when we think about selling businesses. You might hear, oh, your business might be worth X times your revenue, or it’ll be X times your EBITDA. And then you go, what does that even mean? Those things are guides. At the end of the day, it’s about how you find that other human who is your buyer, who sees the value in your business and is willing to pay what you want. And I know this sounds basic, but it is actually not — you can’t just slap it on Facebook Marketplace. What I mean is it’s a real matchmaking activity.

This is why I wanted to mention that a good broker can be worth their weight in gold. As long as they are trusted, well referred, and have really good credentials — because there are cowboys in every space.

Brook

100%. I love what you said. I went to lunch not that long ago with a small group of women in business and one of them offered me her business for sale. Half a million dollars. I was like, oh, well that doesn’t happen every day. But also, last year I bought a school community and this year I sold a school community, and one of my clients said to me, what? I didn’t think that was a thing. And I said, well, if you can bet against a cockroach race, you can buy and sell school communities.

So all of this is to say — don’t discount yourself out of the race and think your business is not worthy of selling. Because I have witnessed many businesses being bought and sold over the last ten years I’ve been in business. And sometimes they’re selling what is in effect an email list. And in other instances, the person has got what I deem to be a pretty good price for what is an email list, a couple of social media profiles, a website, and a casual month-to-month lease. So yeah, if you discount yourself and say, that’s not relevant to me, then it won’t be.

Shaye

That’s right. And that comes right back to conditioning and socialization — like, why would anyone else want this? This is attached to me, it’s connected to me, so it can’t be worth that much. I would love to get, you know, that thing from Men in Black, that stick that wiped your memory — I’d love to do that with some of these mindsets and socializations that we bring forward from our growing up, or whatever story we’ve got from being 12 at the kitchen table or whatever.

Brook

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I want to ask you one final question, which I think is a good one, if I do say so myself. Because you are an absolute champion for women in business. And you know, you’re doing it for all the right reasons — independence, safety, security, helping women change their socialization. A lot of what we do in business, and a lot of what I do in coaching, is to help people unlearn and rewire their approach and their thinking.

I think it would be hugely interesting to hear from you: what do you think women’s strengths are in business? Like, what do you think our secret advantages are that we’re perhaps not recognizing as such?

Shaye

That is such a good question that I should be better at answering, Brook. I think there are a couple of things coming up for me.

I think our ability to genuinely empathize and understand where our clients are, and meet them where they are, is a massive strength. The immediate flip of that coin is, as business owners, this can be a trap for us — I just want to help, I just want to have an impact in the world, and I forget that I should be making money from that. But I think that empathy piece is really powerful.

I think that having a level of risk consideration and a savings mindset is really valuable. We’re not cowboys. We are considered enough not to take someone else’s investment money and blow it to smithereens with some ridiculous idea that was never planned and never going to make money. I think we intrinsically have a sense of responsibility to maximize the resources we have available to us. Again, more often to our detriment, feeling like that’s a restriction — but I also think that is a superpower that we can unlock. Because when we get it, we know what to do with it. We’re super responsible with it. We do amazing things.

And this comes out in some of the global VC funding statistics as well. Women-led businesses deliver two and a half times the revenue of other investments that are male-led — never mind the fact that we can’t get funded, but anyway. I think that really shows just that fiscal responsibility. That can be a real superpower if it’s just nudged a tiny bit.

I think we do more with not a lot than our male peers. And because we don’t typically have 80 hours a week to burn the midnight oil and stay up all night bashing away on AI to come up with a new idea, we have to be on task and really focused. I think that’s a huge superpower. And you’re going to laugh, as you know that I struggle staying on task, but we just literally don’t have the luxury of 70 hours a week. We don’t have the luxury of someone else picking up everything else while we are the chief of everything.

I think knowing that and operating that way means that we’re bloody good at what we do, and because we have to be.

Brook

Yeah. I love that. I love that. I need to practice that question because that was a good question. Thank you. I think you’re totally on the money with the resourcefulness and with the fact that, you know, what do they say — the task expands to fill the time you give it. Yes. And so if you know the half an hour before you’ve got to pick up your children, I’m kind of super impressed. Like, wow, what I can get done in 30 minutes when that’s the last 30 minutes I’ve got — it’s amazing.

So yeah, I think that’s huge. And that’s a nice reframe as well, because it takes something which we look at as a negative — I don’t have a lot of time, I have all these hindrances and restrictions — and reminds us that everybody has hindrances and restrictions, and that’s actually your superpower. Because you are certainly not more productive when you’ve got great swathes of unbounded time, right? A little bit of focus goes a long way.

Oh, Shay, I could talk to you for hours. Luckily for me, I do. So thank you so much for your time and for sharing all of your hard-won insights and expertise. Can you tell us a little bit about how we can find you? What are the best places we can go, and what have you got coming up. 

Shaye

Yeah. So coming up, we are about to start our next round of the Scale Lab, which is exactly for those amazing business owners that are ready to move from feeling like the owner operator into really starting to build out that asset — really moving to that next level of revenue, next level of awesomeness within their business. That commences on the 29th of April.

I am frequent on LinkedIn in particular. You can find me at slash Shay Thayer. And if you enjoy spending time on Instagram, I am there also at shaythia.finance, and we do some sassy fun things on Instagram that maybe we don’t do on LinkedIn.

Brook

Way more fun. Although I do enjoy watching you throw a hand grenade through LinkedIn. 

Shaye

It’s how angry I am.

Brook

Anger is a very productive emotion when we can channel it. Well, thank you again. And please go and find Shay in all the places. You will get smarter from spending time with her. I promise. Thank you so much for being here.

Shaye

Thanks for having me Brook. I appreciate it.

Brook

Real quick before you go — if this episode has gotten you thinking, gotten you excited, or has you changing the way that you do business or life, would you do me a super quick favor and write me a short review? Your podcast review means so much to me and it helps other values-based business owners just like you to find this show, which is a fantastic gift to me.