No Pedestals: Power, Gurus & Growing up in Business

Transcript

Welcome to Meaningful Work Remarkable Life. I’m your host Brook McCarthy and I’m a business coach, trainer and speaker living and working on the unceded lands of the Camaraygall people here in Sydney, Australia.

In this podcast, we explore the paradoxes inherent in working for love and money, magnifying your impact and doing work you feel born to do. We explore the intersections of the meanings we bring to work and the meanings we derive from work.

I accidentally joined a cult when I was at university as a young student studying comparative religions. Lucky for me, they were a very nice cult and in fact so benevolent. I mean, not every group is benevolent, not every group is all benevolent, but largely benevolent. Very idealistic, lots of utopian 70s socialist ideals, feminist. They were an Indian Hindu tantric cult that I almost feel bad calling a cult because I love cult documentaries and my experience was largely very, very positive. So this is not going to end the way that you might imagine.

In fact, in my religious studies degree, we were taught that “cult” was a politically incorrect way of talking about these groups and that the correct term was new religious movements.

I don’t regret for a moment my time spent meditating and teaching others meditation as a baby hippie. I knew very little, of course, but I was kind of following a script, teaching a technique that I’d been taught and told to pass on by the monk that trained me.

It was old school yoga. You can imagine late 1990s, we’re all doing yoga in loose cotton clothing, lots of patchwork, lots of velvet, lots of purple. I was trying my best to maintain a strict vegetarian satvic diet and mostly failing. We were supposed to be fasting once a month, which I found impossible to do. I’d get to dinner and then go, right, that’s the end of that. I cannot possibly skip dinner. I’ve gone all day without food.

But it left an indelible impression upon me. The impression it left at a very young age — because I started teaching meditation at age 18 at Sydney Uni on behalf of this group — was how quick people are to give away their power.

I would teach meditation and then some students would hang back afterwards and ask my advice on things such as, “I’m thinking about leaving my husband. What do you think I should do?” “I’m thinking about leaving my wife.” “I’m thinking about quitting my job.” “I’m thinking about changing careers.” “I’m thinking about traveling the world. What do you think I should do?”

Now I was 18. Let me remind you. I had very little life experience and these people were oftentimes twice or three times my age. And I’d be thinking, what do I think you should do? I’ve got no idea what you should do.

Very early on, it became clear to me that people are quick to give away their power. It is common for people to put others on pedestals, to look at them as authorities and put their power in other people’s hands.

This is something I have never, ever wanted to do. It’s something that is quite easy. And it is something, especially in business coaching, that people will do to you whether or not you actually want it.

The reason this is so dangerous in business coaching is that there is a healthy boundary between respecting someone as a subject matter expert and projecting onto them all your expectations. There is a difference between respect and devotion.

It becomes dangerous when someone thinks, I’m going to give all my expectations to this person. I’m going to project onto them that they can fix my problems, that they are some type of special, extraordinary human with special insight into life itself — not just their subject matter — and that all I need to do is give them my respect, devotion and slavish admiration and my life will be magically fixed.

This is dangerous because when clients put you on a pedestal, they relinquish their critical thinking. You lose mutual respect. You lose the equal relationship. And not only does it create the potential for abuse of power, it also means they will be the first to pull you down when reality inevitably intrudes.

If this sounds outlandish, congratulations — you’re not in some of the weirder circles of business coaching where it’s common to hear language like, “They’re operating on a different frequency,” or “They’ve quantum leaped,” or “They’ve collapsed timelines.”

When I hear things like that, I take it as a sign to back the hell away and exit stage left.

To clarify, there is nothing wrong with admiring someone. Especially when you are challenging your beliefs about what’s possible, it is incredibly useful to surround yourself with people doing extraordinary things that you want to do.

If she can do it, I can do it. We can’t be what we can’t see.

This is particularly relevant for mothers in business. It’s common for women to use children — not always consciously — as a reason not to pursue what they deeply want. In that instance, it’s powerful to see another woman with young children building something extraordinary and doing it in a way that feels aligned and joyful rather than stressed and fraught.

That’s not pedestal worship. That’s inspiration.

What I’m talking about is the extreme tendency to believe others are greater or lesser than ourselves. This is about hierarchies and power.

If you are a kind, thoughtful, critical thinking person — which tends to be the people I attract — you might have a complicated relationship with power. Many of us have had negative experiences with hierarchical power. Perhaps a client or ex-client has undermined your self-esteem to get what they want.

What I call energy vampires.

This is common, particularly in the early years of business. Clients who dangle invoices, add “just one more thing,” or claim expectations haven’t been met to squeeze extra work out of you. Hopefully after it happens a few times, you tighten your terms and conditions, take payment upfront, and get better at spotting red flags.

But because of those experiences, we sometimes decide that power itself is bad. And that’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Power doesn’t only exist in hierarchies. We have power within. We have power with. We can have mutually respectful, mutually flourishing relationships with power between people.

Power can corrupt. But it does not inevitably corrupt. With integrity and character, power doesn’t have to become domination.

One of the joys of being self-employed is that we get to redesign power structures. We get to recreate the status quo.

On the internet, it’s easy to put people on pedestals because we mostly see highlight reels. We don’t see the messy back end unless we’re someone’s accountant or therapist.

And in leadership, we are often taught to project optimism at all times. I remember being told once that if you’re leading people toward a goal, you must tell them everything is fabulous all the time.

When I worked as a tour leader, we were trained to look calm and collected no matter what chaos was unfolding behind the scenes. Even if you were panicking internally, you didn’t show it.

So this creates complexity in business coaching. How do we lead, build resilience and optimism, and at the same time discourage pedestal-building?

Putting someone on a pedestal is an immature way of moving through the world. It gives you a get-out-of-jail-free card. It allows you to procrastinate and avoid setting bold goals because you’ve convinced yourself that extraordinary people are somehow different from you.

There are no leagues you’re barred from by default.

Equally, looking down on others as lesser is the same immature hierarchy. It’s the same refusal to see equality and interconnectedness.

So what’s the difference between a guru and a leader?

Gurus are loud. Their opinions are strident. Most importantly, they hate to be contradicted.

A leader evolves. A leader makes mistakes. A leader contradicts themselves when new information comes to light. That’s growth, not weakness.

In my marketing, I invite debate. I want people to challenge my thinking. That tells me I’ve said something worth responding to. It helps refine my ideas.

Difference of opinion is not a threat. If we can’t coexist with differing views, we don’t deserve coexistence.

When clients put us on pedestals, the best response is to turn attention back to them. What does this say about their relationship with power? What qualities do they see in you that reflect something dormant in them?

It’s irresponsible to be the guru. Gurus are infallible. And no one is infallible.

When you hand over your power, you also hand over the pleasure — the self-satisfaction, the pride, the growth that comes from owning your wins and your failures.

Boundary violations in coaching horror stories always begin small. The frog is boiled slowly.

Business success is due to your hard work and resilience, yes. But also to systemic factors, privileges, access, and context. Playing “follow the leader” ignores these realities.

In conclusion, putting people on pedestals is common — but it’s not healthy.

I want clients in a mutual admiration society with me. Intelligent, critical thinkers. People who question me. People who deepen their self-trust through our work together.

I want to be surrounded by people who are smarter than me, not stupider than me.

Let me know what you think. I’d love to hear your experiences, your horror stories, and whether this has provoked any changes you want to make in your business.

Thank you for listening. Come and find me over at Instagram at Brook McCarthy — there’s no E on Brook. I’ll see you next time.

Real quick before you go, if this episode has gotten you thinking, excited, or changing the way you do business or life, would you do me a super quick favor and write me a short review?

Your review means so much to me and helps other values-based business owners like you find this show. It’s a beautiful gift — and I truly appreciate it.