A conversation with Trudi Lebrón: Coaching for a future that doesn’t yet exist

Transcript

Brook:

Welcome to Meaningful Work, Remarkable Life. I’m your host, Brook McCarthy and I’m a business coach,  trainer and speaker living and working on the unceded lands of the Camaraygal people here in Sydney, Australia. In this podcast, we explore the paradoxes inherent in working for love and money,  magnifying your impact and doing work you feel born to do. We explore the intersections of the meanings we bring to work and the meanings we derive from work.  

So I am so excited to welcome Trudi Lebrón. I’ve been following Trudi online for years now. I’ve read her book, I’ve gifted it, I’ve recommended it many, many times to many, business owners. Trudi is a equity diversity and inclusion facilitator and an executive coach.

She has a lot to do with the coaching world and I particularly love how she separates out marketing from thought leadership, that these are two distinct things. And that, you know, if coaches do want to develop their thought leadership, that, you know, it’s not necessarily through a marketing lens. 

I also need to wish you a happy business birthday. It’s what a couple of weeks. 

Trudi:

Yeah. So 12 years, that was a couple of years ago and my actual birthday is just in a couple of days. So yeah, birthday season. Thank you. Yes.  

Brook:

How good is that? How good is that? You said- time of year. Yeah. And you said you started self-employment over 20 years ago as a contractor at college, in college. Is that correct? 

Trudi:

Yeah. So I was a teaching artist. So while I was in college studying theater, I, on the side, would teach, you know, drama and acting and creative development and art to kids in schools and summer programs and high school programs. yep. Amazing. 

Brook:

You’ve got a pretty diverse work experience from the sound of things. 

Trudi:

Absolutely. 

Brook:

Do you want to give us a little bit of background about that? some of the more… 

Trudi:

Yeah. So I started  in the arts. My mom thought I was going to be a music teacher. That was her, you know, kind of dream for me. If I did what she wanted, I would have been a music teacher to this day probably. So I got my Bachelor’s in theater, but then I went into youth development. So I was again, working in schools with young people.  I started working in after-school programs and summer programs as a regular job in addition to like, you know, the teaching artist stuff. I went through a master’s degree in uh social psychology. So I decided I wanted to continue doing the youth development work and work in the kinds of areas that I had grown up in. So inner cities, I had been a teen mom, schools that had high dropout rates. So I wanted to like work in these communities. And so I got a master’s degree trying to understand, you know, how we create intervention programs for young people that, you know,  divert them to, you know, more positive outcomes in life. And that led me to coaching like that at the time in that field, it isn’t called coaching, it’s called positive youth development, but all the strategies within that discipline are coaching strategies. And if you think about it, young people encounter coaches and mentors in their life all of the time, very naturally, in school, in sports programs, in scouts programs, right? 

So it led me to coaching and really wanting to develop that. And also that world led me to diversity, equity and inclusion. I was working in inner cities with students of colour, majority. So my master’s degree started to really focus on this intersection of diversity, equity, and inclusion and coaching, like youth development strategies. And I fell in love with those worlds, and that’s kind of how I ended up building a consulting firm that was about helping people develop the skills to work with young people better. And then that kind of evolved into just general adult development, diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy.

Yeah. So that’s, that’s kind of been my career path. 

Brook:

So interesting. So many, so many interwoven bits and they all seem to be kind of leading in a similar direction, but also, you know, quite interesting little, yeah, little, 

Trudi:

It’s a very non-traditional nonlinear path, but it has put me in a position to do work in very different ways than, um, what is mostly available, you know, out in the world. So it’s been great. Yeah.

Brook:

Indeed. And the behaviour change in high risk youth. Tell me a little bit more about that. How do you like, as a kind of a day to day job, how do you kind of stay upbeat, stay positive? Like what, you know, what are the biggest challenges with, with that kind of work? 

Trudi:

The biggest challenges honestly are the challenges with the systems that impact people’s life. Working with young people is, it’s rewarding, it can be difficult, but it’s also predictable. Like young people are, you know, they behave in patterns, they respond to authenticity and relationship building. The work with them, even when it’s challenging,  feels like good, impactful work. Like, you know, every moment feels like it’s worth it.  The most frustrating parts is always when, like, the school system has a rule that isn’t what’s best for the student. 

So for example, I once had a student who was pregnant and she was, you know at risk of dropping out. And she was in a program that was designed to help students who were, again, like, you know, who were facing difficulties in their life have pathways to finish school. So I was kind of like a counsellor in this program, helping her to, you know, make sure she got to school and make, you know, helping her like…bus passes, we would give out. I remember picking her up in my own car one time, just the extra tutoring, the extra encouragement, right? And the holding the possibility for them. 

I mean, that’s so much of what coaching is, right? Like when our clients can’t see the vision for themselves, we hold it for them. And so Alana Network was about that.  And I remember one time the student came in to school late and the school had a policy that if you got to school late, you couldn’t eat breakfast. But this was a pregnant teenager who needed to eat. I mean, I would say all kids need to eat, right? But in particular, the risk of this particular young person not eating and waiting to lunch, you know, presented different risks and was inequitable. And I made sure that that student got, you know, got something to eat. And I was written up. I got a, like, you know, I got in trouble. Like, it was against the policy. It became this big deal. 

That was the day I decided I had to leave. That kind of work. Yeah. So that is the hardest part of like working with people is like when there are these things that we can’t control that are clearly working against the best interests of, you know young people. I feel like that’s a metaphor for so many things right now in the world,  but like it’s just so true, right? Where there’s these systems that are just kind of like these barriers that are in our way. 

Brook:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that’s, you know, a large reason why a lot of self, a lot of people become self-employed, right? Because they see systems that just you know, that just aren’t working. And  what I see is a lot of people start businesses because they’ve been bullied in the workplace or they’ve got, you know, young children that they’re trying to uh make work in a system that is completely not set up for it. Or they’ve got, you know, chronic health conditions or they’re helping somebody that’s got chronic health conditions. Like the system isn’t working. And so out of frustration, they end up becoming self-employed. 

Trudi:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Brook:

So tell me a little bit about your coaching work now. I know that you’re doing lots and lots of different things. 

Trudi:

My coaching work now, yeah. My coaching work now has really evolved to, like you said, helping people build thought leadership practices that are disruptive and that are meant to create more equity, more accessibility, and just kind of more human centeredness in their own fields, like in my clients own fields.  So it’s a combination of the DEI work that I’ve done for so long of my scholarly work that I’ve done. mean, I’ve also been a professor, you know, like I’ve done some of the curriculum development, I’ve done citywide equity plans, strategic planning.  So now my uh practice gets to really pull from all these different intersecting areas to help people build  not just a business built around a program or an offer, but a business and a body of work that’s built around, you know, a methodology, an approach that really is meant to have a deeper impact than a business that is generating revenue and paying for your life and a team and that all of that is great. 

People tend to find me when they want a little bit more, when they’re trying to create an impact again in their field or in a community or when the traditional mastermind that’s focused on launching or revenue just isn’t cutting it anymore and they want kind of more from their work. That’s when people tend to come to me to kind of move beyond the offer and say, how do we scale these ideas? How do we scale these values? How do we scale this change? 

Brook:

Yeah, great. Awesome. So they’re like searching for meaning, more meaning in their work. Yeah, more meaning, sharper leadership. 

Trudi:

We’re big on skill development too and competency. You know, for as much as we can talk about, you know, ideas, and purpose, we’re also like, how do you coach better? How do you lead better? How do you become more effective communicator of your ideas? So it’s a combination of like the thought leadership work, but also the tactical kind of skill development that leaders need, especially to lead us  into the future, right? To lead us into a place, you know, past the moment that we’re in, which is a world that’s pretty angry at each other. And, know, just  is holding a lot of tension.

We’re going to need leaders who can bring people together and move us past that. 

Brook:

Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And I think like those kind of advanced, I mean, I don’t like using the word advanced, but you know, in relation, in inter-relational skills, there’s not a lot of that in coaching. There’s not a lot of coaching supervision. It’s quite difficult as a coach. I’ve been a business coach for more than 13 years now.

There’s a lot of programs that will teach sales skills and team development and marketing skills, but there’s not a lot of coaching supervision and there’s not a lot of, you know, actual coaching skill development beyond perhaps, you know, the very first coaching qualification that you might do. 

Trudi:

That is 100% true. Yeah. And that is one of my biggest gripes with the industry and why I, why I do the work that I do, which is really about, again, like, how do we move beyond the sales and marketing conversations, which are important. And I’m not shy about like, we need to make money and people should have good businesses. And there’s so much more that we could do with coaching. And so I tend to work with people who are really practitioners who take coaching seriously. Yeah, who want to,  again, scale those ideas, scale those values, create real change.  And it’s just a different, it brings you to a different depth in relationship with coaching. 

So you’re not just a coach, but you really have a coaching practice that is more complex and precise. It’s just a totally different approach to coaching. 

Brook:

Absolutely. Cause I think it’s one of those strange and unusual jobs where on a good day, it’s like, I cannot believe I’m getting paid for this. I cannot believe I’m getting paid to have these deep and meaningful, uh really vulnerable, honest conversations with people. 

And then on a bad day, what is this?  What is this? What am I doing here? What’s my role? You know, is this useful? Is this helpful? Yeah. 

Trudi:

Absolutely. Again, especially in the world that we’re in where there are real, you know, real serious concerns that people have about economics and their livelihood and their health and like all kinds of things.  And, you know, a mindset tool isn’t going to help every situation or a singular, you know, coaching approach.

So being able to meet people where they’re at and having a wider range of tools and practices and approaches,  you can facilitate any kind of conversation and really feel like you’re leaving people whole and meeting people where they’re at without having to have all the answers. 

Brook:

Yeah, yeah, indeed. And so what are the ways that, you were talking about systems before,  why don’t we kind of take the systems lens to the coaching world? You ready to go there?

Trudi:

Yeah, I mean, we can’t, there’s so much there. Let’s yeah, that’s a big thing to tackle. But let’s find a pathway. 

Brook:

If we were in charge or even if you were in charge, because you can speak to yourself.  If you were in charge of the coaching industry reform, what kind of changes would you like to see? 

Trudi:

Oh, that’s great. That’s a good one. I’d love a more inclusive professional body right, that does require a particular type of training or that you’ve graduated a particular type of program, but more of a place where people can become members or, you know, community members and access professional development at a reasonable cost and, you know, adhere to a code of ethics and just kind of have a community or, you know, have places like communities of practice.

Like almost other every almost every other profession has right these kinds of like associations where uh people go and like people go to a conference. That’s not about a singular, you know person or personality or offer but really about the development of our practice, right? I wish that we had more of those kind of spaces that weren’t connected to you again like certifying bodies because that becomes inclusive. I’m also one of those people who were like, you know, I don’t, I think that the second that you start certifying and licensing people, the second you build inequities that tend to marginalise people of color and people who are economically disadvantaged and people with disabilities and people with language barriers. 

I think that coaching, let me say this, I see coaching as, or coaches as people who facilitate the consented transformations of others. That’s the definition that I used to talk about. Coaching is, who coaches are and what coaching is. 

We do that again in so many other professions.  There are coaches who are practising not because they’re life coaches, but because they have an expertise in a particular field, right? And I don’t think that everyone who is in the role of a coach needs to have this one certification that everybody has. But I do think that anyone who is helping people with transformation would really benefit from some shared tools. Like anyone who works with other humans actually could really benefit from some basic training.  And I think if I were in charge of reform, I think just those couple of tweaks, like having a place for people to come that isn’t exclusive and some real basic training around support and transformation and power dynamics in those relationships, I think everyone would benefit from them. 

And I’ve said this for a long time, those are real basic human services skills. So again, if you ever worked in like a nonprofit working with other humans, or if you were ever worked in a camp or anything like that, you tend to get training on those kinds of skills, on communication skills. Again, it’s not looked at as coaching, but coaching is part of this human service spectrum of work. 

So yeah, I think that those couple of adjustments would actually have a huge impact.  

Brook:

So what would you like to get rid of? Like, what is the pointy end of, you know, the worst practices that you’d love to see eradicated? 

Trudi:

What would I love to see eradicated? So man, I love that question too. These are great.  

I would love to see. It’s, this is hard because it’s hard to tell what’s what, but there are, there is a style of events that are quite manipulative and, you know, really draw on um people’s psychological fatigue, yeah, overwhelm that really put people, that really made people open to suggestion, not just to, not just to buy things, but also for like behavior change and belief shifting and mindset shifting and things like that. I would get rid of those. I don’t know how that would happen.  And that doesn’t mean that all events are those events. That is not the case. Yeah. But there are some that are really highly designed with a high level of  like manipulation. Yeah. And I’d get rid of those. We’d all be better off.  

Brook:

Yeah. No, I know what you’re talking about. I’ve been in, in rooms before where I feel like I’m like the only person who’s not pulling out their credit card. And I’m just watching everybody around me like, you know, yes.

Trudi:

What’s interesting about that is that the skills that one acquires through DEI work are the same skills that  help you be resistant to that kind of suggestion. Because what’s happening in diversity, equity and inclusion work and anti-oppression work is that you’re developing your critical consciousness and practicing your ability to see things from different perspectives and understand dynamics and culture and what’s going on in the space.

When you’re put in an environment where there is inequity, you feel it quick. And so it’s, it’s just interesting that, you know, those kinds of trainings are becoming less available to people. Um, and they’re the exact kinds of tools that help us to think critically. 

Brook:

Well, I mean, I think that you make an excellent point. We need more critical thinking skills. You know, America being a great example of who’s, you know, who’s been voted in.

And also with AI, there’s just, there’s so much information now that people just kind of take and go great. And they regurgitate it. And it’s like, no, no, no, that’s like point, you know, that’s stage number one. You’ve now got to look at it critically and review it and edit it and decide, is it garbage? Is there value in this? You know, how am I using this? 

Trudi: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Brook:

So this kind of idea of nuance and paradox and diversity and seeing things from a different point of view. How do you think that coaches can practically help develop these skills and hopefully develop these skills in their coaches as well? 

Trudi:

Yeah. So the way that you develop these skills is to practice them. You have to be in spaces with other people who are having conversations about the world, about critical consciousness, about coaching in this way, because this work, it’s just like anything else. You have to practice it to get better at it, right? 

And at the end there is a fluency to this work. And just like any other language, you can’t learn it unless you practice it. You can’t like learn it just in your head by thinking about it. You have to be in spaces, cause you have to feel what it feels like to be in a room that gets uncomfortable. And you have to feel the experience of holding that space and watching what happens in a supportive way, right? Like, those are experiences that you can’t learn unless you’re there. And we’ve gotten good at, society has gotten better at replicating spaces to do that online, but whether you’re in person or online, have to, this work is collaborative. It has to be done with people. So being in conversation, and I don’t mean like on social media arguing with people about what’s going on in the world, right?

I mean, like having conversations about like what’s happening and what do we think and what are the coaching conversations that are coming up? 

One of the things that I’m hearing from my clients is conversations they’re having with me, but also conversations they’re hearing from their colleagues, their peers and clients about, you know, just how do people show up? How do people keep showing up and working when the world is on fire around them, like in any number of ways, right?

There is no coaching answer to that question, right? There’s not an answer that you could provide that is, you know, that could deal with that question. But you can learn how to help your client process through that question and how it’s based with that question and try to come to, you know, with some context setting, try to come to a place where you can meet that client with a resolution in the moment so that they’re not feeling hopeless at the end of your conversation, but that they got some reframing and that they were able to come to some decisions and kind of make a plan if that’s what they needed to do. 

I think that, yeah, I think those are the kinds of skills that we need to be developing. And there’s just so much opportunity for coaching to go in a direction that can meet the moment, but we have to move past the individualistic, like I’m just using coaching to hit my next goal.

Brook:

And so the coaching skills that you’re talking of here and the ability to facilitate, you know, difficult or complicated, complex conversations. Um, I think you said to meet people in the moment and the fluidity of, know, of that. Are these skills that you think are going to be more in need in the future or less in need? I’d love to kind of. 

Trudi:

100 % more. 

Brook:

Yes. Great. Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s good news for me.  

Trudi:

Yeah. We’re going to have to heal.  Like people are going to be,  here’s what’s true. When there are times of intense social prices, there is an uptick in coaching books and religious attendance and turn like people turning towards spirituality and things like that when there are these intense times of social crisis. 

We happen to be at a moment where people are looking less at traditional spirituality and like trusting, know, just kind of looking for alternate traditional therapy. People are looking for other spaces to get help, to find answers, to find hope, to get context, to find community.

So again, if we think past just the immediate traditional like life coach, you think about the need for people’s life outcomes to improve. That’s what coaching is about. 

Coaching is about helping people improve their life outcomes by, you know, taking charge and creating plans and all, you know, you use all kinds of tools to do that. So the need is gonna be there and it’s gonna be there, not just in the form of like a personal coaching practice, but teachers are gonna need these skills and social workers are gonna need these skills and parents are gonna need these skills and you know, again, scout leaders like everyone is gonna need anyone who interacts with other humans is really gonna benefit from having the kinds of skills that can like deescalate, bring people together, help us reconsider things, right? Help build connections, not use triggering language. 

Those are skills that everyone is gonna be able to benefit from and especially professional leaders of teams. Like,  have you met Gen Z? Like there’s a big, any place where humans are interacting, these skills are needed. 

Brook:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And, know, and I think that,  um, I mean, you haven’t said as much, but you’ve kind of talked around this is that, you know, your approach to coaching is very much like, it appears to me is very much, you know, we’re in this together. This is a community thing. Like we are not, you know,  isolated beings, we are all interconnected. We have,  you know, by extension, perhaps a responsibility to each other and to the wellbeing of, you know, the collective. Yeah. It’s so refreshing to hear that. And I’m a hundred percent, you know, agree. I think as, as business owners, sometimes we get a little bit socially isolated because we, you know, we tend to start businesses because we are that hyper independent can do, you know, person who starts to believe that they’re, you know, they’re in this all by themselves and that, you know, they need to take all responsibility for, you know, everything rather than recognising that they’re part of a community. And when we do that, you know, the feeling that you get from that, it’s, it’s very satisfying, reassuring, you know, very human.  

Trudi:

The number one piece of advice that I have been giving to my clients and these are clients, know, vast majority of people I’m meeting with online is telling them to get into their community. 

It’s one thing to run an online business, but if you’re not careful, your whole world can turn right into this computer and just like you’re a media household, and all of a sudden you haven’t seen your friends in a year and you haven’t been out and you’re not connected to your local chamber of commerce, for example, and you’re not connected to local businesses. And there could be plenty of opportunity locally for your skills to be working in your community in one of many ways. 

That’s one of the things that I am being a little bit more intentional about right now and in the coming year. When I built my practice, was before online, um it was a local consulting firm. My clients were people that I had lunch with, know, like downtown, you know, regularly. But that has shifted so much and lately, especially because everything that’s happening in the world, I’ve been feeling like I want to be closer to the impact. So I’m being really intentional about submitting for some consulting opportunities here locally while also having our online practice. 

So just, again, being responsive to what’s happening in the world, where could I bring these skills?  There’s so many options, but we have to think wider than just the traditional launch marketing, online business funnel. There’s so many opportunities where we can bring in our skills.

Brook:

Yeah, no, hundred percent. I’ve just recently started working with an architectural firm here in Sydney  and I’m meeting the owner for lunch, you know, which is, I can’t remember the last time I had a client for lunch. It’s so exciting. good. Going to get in the car, get dressed, leave the house.  

Trudi:

Yeah, that’s good. 

Brook:

So you said something, I can’t remember where I pulled this quote from, but you said, if we spend all of our time just solving the issues that we have now, we aren’t taking any time to work on building the future that we want one way racism doesn’t exist. 

Trudi:

Yeah, that was in my TEDx talk.

Brook:

There you go. In the TEDx talk, which I watched, um, highly recommended it was searching for our social future. Is that right? Yeah. Yep. Excellent. So tell me a little bit more about that because, you know, this is very much in keeping with the theme of the future. How do we, you know, practically, intellectually, emotionally, and every other way build a future that we want. 

Trudi:

That is through practice, right? The answer is through practice. And if I had a real, if a real concrete answer existed, I think we would have it, right? We’d have that future. And I think that even that lesson is an important one to remember, right? That we actually don’t have the way to this world that is perfectly just and perfectly equitable because we have never had that. 

That is, we don’t know what that looks like.

And in remembering that, it gives us the space to say, like, we have to solve it. It’s not this thing that I can just expect that I have the answer to or that anyone else has the answer to. We have to practice it. We have to solve it. We have plenty of research and examples for ways that we can build that in communities, right, and practice with each other more equitable, more anti-oppressive, more liberatory ah relationships. But they have to be practiced in communities. So, the quote that you were talking about comes from this concept in the practice of futurism, called skip the problem. And so when you’re doing futurism work and kind of rehearsing and practicing like, well, how do we build these futures? 

You get permission to just say, know, skip the problem, skip solving the problem and imagine a world where the problem just doesn’t exist at all. What new opportunities do we see, right? What new assumptions do we need to make? What beliefs might need to be embraced in order to get there? So we release the attachment to solving the problem, which is incredibly uncomfortable, right? Especially if you are impacted by those problems or if you’re an advocate or work within those problems, it is really difficult to just kind of, you know, put that down for a moment, but it’s,  that’s what we say, it’s a practice, right? And we have to give ourselves permission to approach it creatively. And that’s why you see a lot of art.  

There’s a lot of conversations about creativity and art in like futurism work and social justice work, because it kind of just gives us a little bit of cognitive space to say, let’s play over here. And so that is that invitation, right? How do we, for a moment, just put down the problem or maybe, and this is more closely,  more accurate of what I’ve come to believe, maybe it’s that not everyone’s work is to solve the problem. Some people have to solve the problem and some people have to picture what’s next. And those don’t have to be the same people because those need to be happening at the same time, right? 

We need to be working together and in conversation with each other. So that’s another way to look at it. But yeah, I think that that’s essentially the kind of philosophy behind that quote. And I think it’s something that we could practice even in our own life, right? When we’re just feeling kind of anxious, we can use that as a coaching tool to say like, that if I skipped this problem for a moment? Like what does the other side of this look like? And it gives us a little bit of psychological space. 

Brook:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Cause I think, you know, it’s really easy to get a bit fixated on the problem and like, you know, I’ve got this problem. You know, sometimes, you know, you work with a client who’s just like, they can’t get beyond this impediment, you know, perceived or otherwise like, you know, oh, this thing is in my way. can’t. I can imagine how helpful it would be if you’re able to, you know, I would imagine it would open up a huge amount of imagination and creativity. Yeah, it 

Trudi:

And that’s why these things are really important, too, that we’re having coaching tools, right, beyond just the traditional mindset tools,  but also that we kind of understand where that kind of tool is appropriate and where it’s not, because there are things that clients would say where that response wouldn’t be an appropriate response, right?  

So the understanding, like, how our coaching can impact, understanding trauma-informed practice, understanding equity and how all of those things are kind of involved in a coaching relationship. It gives us more tools to use. Again, the level of effectiveness and preciseness of your coaching really, like, it just dials in in a way that’s just very different from a traditional coaching tool that you’re trained in and that you use. 

This is next level, hopefully culture-changing coaching work.  

Brook:

I love it. Love it.  Just want to change everything, you know.  

Trudi:

We had a magic wand. 

Brook:

Fantastic. So if you were to change the coaching world for the future, and I’m not just strictly speaking about coaches, I’m speaking about, you know, all the different coaching skills and all the different people impacted by these coaching skills and these coaches, whether they call themselves coaches or not, what would you love to see more of? What do you think, you know, as a whole we could  grow into. 

Trudi: 

I wish that everyone was trained in coaching. We don’t have to call it coaching, but  I really wish, again, kind of bringing me back to my youth development roots. When I was working in that with that age group, my big line in the sand that I was really advocating for was that we had schools that had liberatory equity centered strategies in the school so that young people got more exposure early to critical thinking, critical thought, that kind of practice, self-directed learning. Because those are the tools that like when we introduce them young, young people can grow into the kind of adults that are more discerning and more strategic and they have better communication skills. 

And I see those all as coaching skills, right? If we took good quality, like basic human services skills and basic coaching skills, and just taught people that kind of as a communication method and conflict resolution method from younger, I think we have a very different culture. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that, you the big change that I’d make about our own coaching is that we wouldn’t think of it as something limited to this industry, right? But that we’d see these skills as good skills for being humans.

And that some of us are trained to do it and are facilitators of communities, right? But that, that it is a very common thing, just as common as a social worker or a teacher, you know, but that we have these, you know, community facilitators and coaches who do this work and that it’s like understood.  

Brook:

Yeah. I love that. And I love the way you keep using that phrase, human services. You’re talking about any kind of services when you’re interacting with people, right? Yes, exactly. So that would be retail, hospitality, anything. Yeah. Yeah. 

Trudi:

So human, that’s interesting because human services typically isn’t thought of as retail, those that part of the training, like customer service skills are absolutely human services. Yeah. 100%.

Brook:

Yeah. I love that. I love that. Cause you know, it’s really clear and obvious, for example, when you’re in a restaurant or a cafe, somebody who’s just really good at it. They’re you know, they’re fantastic at interacting with people and nothing is, you know, they’re not looking for conflict. They’re always great at diffusing that they can meet people where they’re at. They’re just, they’ve got that special skill. I think it’s such a, a brilliant, brilliant thing. And we don’t, don’t think we value it as much as we should.

I don’t think so. I think that what we often count on is that that’s a personality trait and sometimes I think for some people it is a natural part of their personality, but it can be a trained skill, right? As things can be trained. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. 

Brook:

And what I’m seeing more of is a lot of focus on friendships  where because of, you know, the increasing social  alienation that’s going on, mobile phone use, you know, and  the fact that a lot of us are working from home now, we don’t have that kind of, you know, ad hoc communication and running into strangers in the street, you know, making small talk kind of thing. Like there, there is a lot of emphasis, I think on friendships. Um, especially as a lot of people, you know, the romantic relationship as like the be all and end all is also, you know, disintegrating. 

Trudi:

Yeah, that, you know, I read a book, this, this probably was the first personal development book that I ever read. I was a teenager. I was maybe 18 years old or something. em And it was written by John Gray, the guy who wrote, the Men are from Mars, Women are from these books. So he is very famous for that series, but he also wrote a book called, How to Get What You Want and Want What You Have. And the  only reason I knew about this book was because I was a teen mom and I had dropped out of school and so was watching daytime TV and he was an author on like the Rosie O’Donnell Show or one of the, you know, one of those shows, Ricky Lake, something that I was like, you know, watching it in the middle of the day. And just something about that conversation sparked my interest and I like went to the bookstore and bought that book.

And there was so much that I learned from that book, but one of them was exactly what you’re just touching on. And he had this idea of like love tanks. And there was a lot of emphasis on how one relationship is not able to fill all of the love tanks. That was his metaphor, right? All of the love tanks that you have. So even that far, I was like, I’m telling you late teenager, right? That I’m like being exposed to these ideas and it has really shaped all of this. I often remember that lesson when I’m talking about like equity and community and how we use our time and who we’re our time with and how, you know, me encouraging my husband to go and hang out with his friends, right? Like these things can shape us like all these years later. This is, when I tell you I’m a nerd and I go hard for coaching, I’m serious about it.

Brook:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. 

No, I think it’s really important. I think, you know, relationships break down for multiple reasons. But one of them, I think, is that we put too much pressure on this  one person to satisfy all of our complex needs. It’s too much.  

Trudi:

And that can also happen with our business. If we’re putting all of the emphasis on our business and respecting our business to give us all of the meaning and purpose and friendship and all the things that we need, that’s toxic. Same relationship with our children, with our friends. If we’re looking at any singular relationship we have to meet the diverse complex needs that we have as humans, we’re setting ourselves up for, you know, for overwhelm, for toxicity, for strain, you know, undue burden on the relationships that we have.  

Brook:

Oh, look, you’re speaking my language. I’m definitely guilty of that before, like wanting my business to satisfy all of my goals in life. Definitely I’m guilty of that at times and I’ve had to kind of pull myself back. 

You know, one vehicle cannot solve all these desires. 

Trudi:

I think it’s a lesson that we all learn at different times, at different points of our lives for different reasons. Yeah. Indeed. 

Brook:

Well, Trudi, it has been an absolute delight. I’m so thrilled that we made it happen and that we’re here having this conversation.  I’m so excited for people who may never have heard of you before to go and look you up, especially your TEDx talk. 

Your book, the Anti-Racist Business Book is one of the very, very few business books that I recommend. I find most business books kind of should have stuck to it being a blog.

Trudi:

Thank you so much.

Brook:

Your story as well, know, interwoven, which we haven’t really touched on in any depth, but I would highly recommend that people go and find this book. It’s a great read. And you also take people overseas. Is that right? 

Trudi:

Yeah. So we do a couple of retreats a year. My kind of core program and project right now is the residency program. And it’s essentially, year of study with me where people develop their bodies of work and kind of do all of the things that we’re talking about and the opportunity to be in person for actual residency where we’re doing all of the same things. It’s really amazing. 

Brook:

And I hear that you cook,  you bake cookies. Is that correct? I do.  

Trudi:

Yes. I cook for my people. Every time we’ve ever had a retreat, we have them here in Connecticut. We’ve had them and we have them in Puerto Rico. I’m always cooking at some point. I love to cook. Right. And I love as a Puerto Rican, it is very important to cook and feed our guests. So we eat really well. And because I’m a cook, I have to get my hands in there. 

Brook:

Yes. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, I’m a very talented eater.  Thank you so much.

Trudi:

Thanks for having me. This was fun. 

Brook:

Real quick before you go, if this episode has gotten you thinking, gotten you excited or has you changing the way that you do business or life? Would you do me a super quick favor and write me a short review?  Your podcast review means so much to me and it helps other values-based business owners just like you  to find this show, which is a fantastic gift to me.